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PostThu Dec 15, 2005 1:14 pm Offline
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Tue May 03, 2005 9:42 am70Seattle
Dude you've proven your point AA doesn't work and you have all the statistics and facts to prove it no one's (at least me, I'm convinced) is going to debate you on this anymore - let it go

as Eric Cartman once said, "Sounds like some one has some sand in their vagina."

let it go

:roll:

a
"...So Long Balls!"
PostThu Dec 15, 2005 1:28 pm Offline
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Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:37 am19
Quote:
You may or may not have heard about what's her name - here lets go to one of the websites you site


ajadonis,

The url we are speaking of here is: http://www.peele.net/debate/kishline.dui.3.html . I see no need to copy the entire article here. However, what you say immediately below is either ignorant or dishonest and misleading.

Quote:
Seems like AA's aren't the only ones who change their tune when their backs are against the wall


Audrey Kishline was the founder of "Moderation Management." One of the beliefs that MM had was that there were "problems drinkers" and "real alcoholics," just like AA. After ten years, she decided that moderation wasn't working for her and joined AA. She was an AA member for several months when she killed two people driving drunk the wrong way down an interstate highway.

The only thing I see important in this story, other than it being a story of great tragedy for the victims, is that AA front group NCADD publicized the story without ever mentioning that she had been an AA member for months when she killed those two people.

As far as "change their tune," she changed her tune before her back against the wall.

Quote:
let me know how that moderate, scientifi drinking is working out for you?


How is it working? Perhaps not well at all. The last time I went out for a beer I was bored to tears before I was halfway through with it and walked out and came home. While doubtless my "Higher Power" is stronger than the AA God who can't cure the disease of alcoholism, my Higher Power seems to, over the last 20 years or so, have gone way to far. It'd be nice to have a few beers and shoot some pool or something with a little of a buzz. Maybe not. Maybe I'm just getting old. :-)

Quote:
Curious - why do doctors, nurses and psychiatrist have their own AA meetings if it's scientifically not proven to work - these are doctors right, men of science - did you interview any of them or are they on the side of the world consipracy to convert all criminals to a life of religion through the disquise of AA?


Do you really believe everything doctors, nurses and psychiatrists do is base in science? What planet are you from.

Indoctrination of doctors is far easier because they are threatened with loss of license if they don't "come to believe." To see what kind of "treatment" they undergo, do a search on "Talbott" at http://www.peele.net . Talbott, who owns a treatment center in Georgia and was head of The American Society of Addictive Medicine which is a stepper front originally founded under the auspices of the NCADD and is not recognized by the AMA.

Ken Ragge
http://www.morerevealed.com



http://www.idaa.org
PostThu Dec 15, 2005 2:26 pm Offline
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Wed Apr 16, 2003 9:32 pm9640Sedro Woolley
djadonis206 wrote:
Dude you've proven your point AA doesn't work and you have all the statistics and facts to prove it no one's (at least me, I'm convinced) is going to debate you on this anymore - let it go

as Eric Cartman once said, "Sounds like some one has some sand in their vagina."

let it go

:roll:

a



Good call..For one, if anyone who disagrees wants to argue with him, it is pointless, because there is nothing that can be said that will change his opinion.Also, as I said we don't get many real debates here anymore,alot the kids here who have anything to say about the issues covered in South Park just repeat what Trey and Matt said in the episode, whether they had any prior knowledge of the issue or not. Not everyone is like this, but alot of people here are, and so it is unlikely many people will even read all the the posts Ken puts up, because they are so long..
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PostThu Dec 15, 2005 2:41 pm Offline
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Wed Nov 30, 2005 3:54 pm1148108 Sugoi Baka Street
Off Topic: ^ That's true. No-one probably even reads your posts Ken and another thing that annoys me about your posts. You just do "Quote" instead of their name. They won't know if you quoted them because half would just ignore.

On Topic: Bloody Mary, I'm going to avoid seeing this episode more than about five times. Still, it was smile funny. If they make another catholic one in season 10. And it's probably unlikely but it better not be about Mary if they do. I see many Mary statues and they are f*cking really annoying. All of the other episodes of the season were better than this one. And I actually thought it would be kind of boring at the start because I just read "Stans dad gets caught drunk driving, and Stan get embarresed." That's all I read, but after I read the Randy part I thought it was going to be quite good. But I was wrong on my second thought.
PostThu Dec 15, 2005 4:09 pm Offline
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Fri Nov 28, 2003 2:46 pm2811LB Cali muthafncka, now what?
Did I mention that I needed a Beer? Well, make that another.
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PostThu Dec 15, 2005 5:21 pm Offline
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Wed Apr 16, 2003 9:32 pm9640Sedro Woolley
Can I have one of your beers, Killa?
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PostThu Dec 15, 2005 6:14 pm OfflineBoard Moderator
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Tue Apr 08, 2003 1:57 am17368Hollywood, CA
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PostFri Dec 16, 2005 1:19 am Offline
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Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:37 am19
all quotes are of djadonis

Quote:
last I checked there are over 100 different methods of getting clean and sober - find one that works for you no one has the monopoly on recovery


I'm very curious what just a dozen of these 100 different methods of getting clean and sober are. In the United States 95% of all inpatient treatment is 12 Step. Most of the other 5% is Fundamentalist Christian and Scientology "treatment." Unless you are counting different "fellowships" that practice the 12 Steps as different treatment, I don't know where you are coming up with these 100 different methods.

Quote:
If you're in trouble with the law and have a problem with the word god, work it out with your lawyer to go to a state run treatment facility (they can't even say the word god) and you can go to any number of self help group therapy meetings that have nothing to do with 12steps to get your slip signed (all you have to do is ask)


And just what state run treatment facilities "can't even say the word god"? Where did you get this from? I don't know of one government funded treatment facility in the US that isn't 12 Step unless it is Fundamentalist Christian. Just what state run treatment facility do you know of where they can't even say the word god? Please, share this with us. Most of them count those who fail to "come to believe" as "treatment failures."


Quote:
debate aside, the deal is if you're in a situation and you can't figure it out don't listen to me or Ken, listen to what your heart tells you to do and eventually you'll find the answer.

If you're in trouble with the law ask your lawyer what the best course of action to take is - if you're sick of getting DUI's you may want to consider some 'type' of treatment - if you don't give a f*ck just do the time or if you're looking for an easy way out well tough sh*t - you're guity, deal with it.


What makes you think that "treatment" lowers the rate of DUIs? The only study that was ever done comparing 12-Step treatment vs. psychiatric treatment vs. no treatment showed the no treatment group getting rearrested the least.

Quote:
I'm not for or against AA


You could have fooled me. You sound exactly like a member of a 12-Step group.

Quote:
- I know alot about both sides of the fence through experience, education and forums such as this one - there never in life is a right way and a wrong way, it's really about your way - if it works for you don't let radical people like AA big book thumpers or radical AA haters such as Ken disuade you from something you know to be working...if it works it works


This is very interesting language you use here. "Big book thumpers or radical AA haters." I've never heard that out of someone who is not a Stepper. Only Steppers call harsh critics "AA haters." Of course, I understand "the spirtual principle of Anonymity." Not only does it keep the public from knowing that the person who gave a hearty recommendation of AA on the news yesterday is drunk today, but members can pretend they are totally impartial and sway opinion in favor of the Step groups. This is particularly influential when Drs, psychologists and psychiatrists do so.


Quote:
Ok ok - so remember the Wright Brothers? there was alot of people who said they were crazy, scientist and the like said what they were doing was impossible and they had the numbers and figures to prove it - I believe the Wright Brothers said "f*ck the haters" in a round about way and did something people thought was never possible - anythings possible, despite what a website or book tells you - anything

Hell at one point in time people were convinced beyond a reasonable doubt the world was ummmmm FLAT - boy do they feel stupid now - maybe one day all the people in AA who go to grave sober will feel pretty dumb about blindly following a cult and wish they had listened to people like Ken, Stanton Peele and the like and vice versa - people who actually listened to Ken and Stanton who dies a horrible death drinking or god forbid kill some one else (Audrey Kishline) saying god I wish I had listened to those cultist and participated in the burning of te cow on the 4th sacred moon in the year of Horse at midnight. (ok that was over the top (doh))


Very interesting that you use examples of knowledge gained using the human intellect and the scientific method against the religous dogma of those times (Dark Ages for flat earth and "if man was meant to fly God would have given him wings") to make your case that "science don't mean nuthin' when talking 'bout the spiritual disease of alcoholism."

Quote:
I'm conceding this debate to Ken Ragge - he has every right to his view and he's free to express those feelings, findings and research and I wish him luck on whatever path he's on


Yes, I'm free to express my feelings, findings and other peoples' research because I hold no professional license (Dr., nurse, psychologist) and so I'm not in a position where merely being accused of misbehavior with alcohol or drugs by a Stepper is ground for "treatment" and criticism of Step groups is grounds for pulling my license.

Ken Ragge
http://www.morerevealed.com
PostFri Dec 16, 2005 10:27 am Offline
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Tue May 03, 2005 9:42 am70Seattle
Ken Ragge wrote:

I'm very curious what just a dozen of these 100 different methods of getting clean and sober are. In the United States 95% of all inpatient treatment is 12 Step. Most of the other 5% is Fundamentalist Christian and Scientology "treatment." Unless you are counting different "fellowships" that practice the 12 Steps as different treatment, I don't know where you are coming up with these 100 different methods.


type into http://www.google.com: chemical dependancy non spiritual

http://www.unhooked.com
http://www.rational.org
http://www.harmreduction.org
http://www.moderationmanagement.org
http://www.habitdoc.com (science based)
http://www.killthecraving.com
http://www.secularsobriety.org
http://www.smartrecovery.org
http://www.peele.net (He seems to have a few ideas)
http://www.nida.nih.gov
http://www.bhrm.org
http://www.assistedrecovery.com




Ken Ragge wrote:
And just what state run treatment facilities "can't even say the word god"? Where did you get this from? I don't know of one government funded treatment facility in the US that isn't 12 Step unless it is Fundamentalist Christian. Just what state run treatment facility do you know of where they can't even say the word god? Please, share this with us. Most of them count those who fail to "come to believe" as "treatment failures."


Recovery Centers of King County
464 - 12th Avenue ste 300
Seattle, Wa. 98122
Ph # 206.322.2970
Fax # 206.568.8253

call them and ask...

http://www.rckc.org




Ken Ragge wrote:
What makes you think that "treatment" lowers the rate of DUIs? The only study that was ever done comparing 12-Step treatment vs. psychiatric treatment vs. no treatment showed the no treatment group getting rearrested the least.


Ummm, the test you talk about are abput 100 or so people and that doesn't make up the population as a whole - George Bush is president, but I'm sure I could find 100 people who didn't vote for him

of the 40 or so who went to meetings and the others who went to Pyschiatry - did they drink in between sessions and did they follow directions of their counselors and group members? Did they have any desire to stop drinking? What was the incentive for them to participate in this study?

I read somewhere - either your site or your boy Peeles

"People who abstained from drinking had a higher rate of relapse than those who continued to drink moderately."

Think about this for a second, think hard...

- how can you relapse if you NEVER STOPPED - so yeah out of 100 people who abstained if 1 drank that would prove your point - no debate there :roll:


ken Ragge wrote:
You could have fooled me. You sound exactly like a member of a 12-Step group.


Would it matter? I've never once in this debate said you should go to AA or any other kind of spiritual based program. I believe what I said was you should do what's right for you and not listen to me, you or anyone else - listen to what your heart tells you.

I could be the leader of a Satanic cult that worships squirels and things that go bump in the night for all you know - I'm just not as closed minded as some people to alternatives to life

I believe the true meaning of Anonymity helps people feel safe - if you're a well known figure in the community and you have a problem, sometimes it's not best to advertise it, don't you think

Addiction can be a ugly thing and some people don't want their trash dragged into the street

If someone says their in AA one day and relapse the next, oh well - you're free as human being to look at that however you want - it's not the basis for the tradition

Some people don't want to be stereotyped by people like you just because they go to AA

So, let's flip the mirror back around to you Ken, you sound like someone who has nothing better to do with their time or energy - proving your point on the South Park Spoilers/New Episode Discussion is rather gay don't you think (remember you started all this)


ken Ragge wrote:
This is very interesting language you use here. "Big book thumpers or radical AA haters." I've never heard that out of someone who is not a Stepper. Only Steppers call harsh critics "AA haters." Of course, I understand "the spirtual principle of Anonymity." Not only does it keep the public from knowing that the person who gave a hearty recommendation of AA on the news yesterday is drunk today, but members can pretend they are totally impartial and sway opinion in favor of the Step groups. This is particularly influential when Drs, psychologists and psychiatrists do so.


Lots of groups use the word "hater" examples

Quit Hatin' dawg
You're a playa hater
Don't hate the playa hate the game
Why you Hatin'

Ken, you're Hatin' - period. Stop hatin' get the sand out of your vagina and move on with your life. I'm sure one day The US government, doctors, psychiatrist, therapists and addicts worldwide will accept your idea of "No Treatment" and we can move on from this ugly phase of our development.

Remember you can do anything you put your mind to Ken, anything.


Ken Ragge wrote:
Very interesting that you use examples of knowledge gained using the human intellect and the scientific method against the religous dogma of those times (Dark Ages for flat earth and "if man was meant to fly God would have given him wings") to make your case that "science don't mean nuthin' when talking 'bout the spiritual disease of alcoholism."


Yes, I believe you can do anything you set your mind to - no matter what anyone tells you - try it

I would feel sorry for the person with such a narrow scope of the world and their own personal potential :roll:

Ken Ragge wrote:
...I'm not in a position where merely being accused of misbehavior with alcohol or drugs by a Stepper is ground for "treatment" and criticism of Step groups is grounds for pulling my license.


OK - sounds good

Ken, you've proven your point -
"...So Long Balls!"
Last edited by djadonis206 on Fri Dec 16, 2005 11:08 am, edited 4 times in total.
PostFri Dec 16, 2005 10:49 am Offline
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Tue May 03, 2005 9:42 am70Seattle
Again, I am not for or against AA - as I've said before do what feels right for you - don't listen to me or Ken listen to your heart

If something doesn't feel right respect yourself to make a change.

Adonis!
"...So Long Balls!"
PostFri Dec 16, 2005 1:16 pm Offline
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Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:37 am19
all quotes are responses of djadonis

I wrote:

I'm very curious what just a dozen of these 100 different methods of getting clean and sober are. In the United States 95% of all inpatient treatment is 12 Step. Most of the other 5% is Fundamentalist Christian and Scientology "treatment." Unless you are counting different "fellowships" that practice the 12 Steps as different treatment, I don't know where you are coming up with these 100 different methods.


Quote:


None of the above offer inpatient treatment except perhaps the last two. I don't have the time to check. Moreover, Rational Recovery doesn't believe in "the disease" so they can hardly "treat" it, although they can be helpful to people who wish to abstain.

I'm amused with your selection of peele.net. While Stanton Peele is a social psychologist and attorney fighting government coercion into Step groups, he isn't a variety of inpatient alcoholism treatment.

Nida is a government agency that regularly releases press releases supportive of the 12-Step treatment industry.

You score a D-. And only that well because I think you really tried.

I wrote:
And just what state run treatment facilities "can't even say the word god"? Where did you get this from? I don't know of one government funded treatment facility in the US that isn't 12 Step unless it is Fundamentalist Christian. Just what state run treatment facility do you know of where they can't even say the word god? Please, share this with us. Most of them count those who fail to "come to believe" as "treatment failures."


Quote:
Recovery Centers of King County
464 - 12th Avenue ste 300
Seattle, Wa. 98122
Ph # 206.322.2970
Fax # 206.568.8253

call them and ask...


I called them. I asked. I was told that they couldn't answer. Interesting. It seems the federal court rulings are having an ever greater effect.

Of course, they acknowledged being 12 Step and have 12-Step meetings so I'm real curious if on the posters of the Steps on the wall they've drawn a line through "God" and have written in "higher power." LOL.

Like most areas effected by court rulings, they probably do as they wish with those sentenced to treatment there (it isn't state operated but they do have contracts with the state) and only pretend to outsiders that they are unconcerned about God's Will.

You can't have the 12 Steps without the AA Rescuing Deity.


I wrote:
What makes you think that "treatment" lowers the rate of DUIs? The only study that was ever done comparing 12-Step treatment vs. psychiatric treatment vs. no treatment showed the no treatment group getting rearrested the least.


Quote:
Ummm, the test you talk about are abput 100 or so people and that doesn't make up the population as a whole - George Bush is president, but I'm sure I could find 100 people who didn't vote for him


That is not true. The study I am speaking of involved 301 people arrested for drunk driving who averaged 12 prior arrests for drunk driving. These where the hardest-core drunk drivers. While if one is going to cherry pick who goes to what treatment, that was not done. They were assigned by random to one of the three categories by judges.

You do understand what random means, don't you? If you do, then you also understand that it would be extremely unlikely to find 100 people who didn't vote for George Bush if you selected the people you asked by random. While science necessarily extremely careful in their language on such things (one in a billion is not "impossible"), it would be fair to say in plain conversation that it would be impossible to find 100 people who didn't vote for George Bush in a random sample of 100 people.

Quote:
of the 40 or so who went to meetings and the others who went to Pyschiatry - did they drink in between sessions and did they follow directions of their counselors and group members? Did they have any desire to stop drinking? What was the incentive for them to participate in this study?


Doesn't matter what they did. You suggested AA for drunk drivers. Unless you aim isn't public safety, it doesn't matter what any or all of the three groups did except not drive drunk. Also, in the context of those arrested for DUI, it doesn't matter if they have the desire to stop drinking. It only matters that they don't drive drunk anymore. That is, of course, unless you have an agenda other than public safety.

Quote:
I read somewhere - either your site or your boy Peeles

"People who abstained from drinking had a higher rate of relapse than those who continued to drink moderately."

Think about this for a second, think hard...

- how can you relapse if you NEVER STOPPED - so yeah out of 100 people who abstained if 1 drank that would prove your point - no debate there Rolling Eyes


First, I'm flattered you refer to "your boy Peeles." Usually it is the other way around. LOL

And maybe you could think hard about what you just quoted. Helping people stop drinking destructively is just that. It doesn't matter if they end up drinking moderately or not at all. The idea that an "alcoholic" can't return to normal drinking is a myth promulgated by the Step groups.

When Peele said, "People who abstained from drinking had a higher rate of relapse than those who continued to drink moderately" it means exactly what he said. The "abstainers" relapsed into self-destructive drinking more than those who moderated their drinking. I understand that is outside 12-Step and Fundamentalist Christian ideology and is plain English and not Programese but it is, nonetheless, the truth.

I wrote:
You could have fooled me. You sound exactly like a member of a 12-Step group.

Quote:
Would it matter?


Of course it would. It matters what the personal biases of people who push particular postions and ideologies.

Quote:
I could be the leader of a Satanic cult that worships squirels and things that go bump in the night for all you know


Yes, I've heard of some people in the Step groups who call Satan their higher power, although usually, I would imagine, they are very quiet about that choice. Most certainly if someone announced that Satan was their higher power in any meeting I went to, I would have found another meeting when I was a Stepper.

Quote:
I believe the true meaning of Anonymity helps people feel safe - if you're a well known figure in the community and you have a problem, sometimes it's not best to advertise it, don't you think

Addiction can be a ugly thing and some people don't want their trash dragged into the street


But then why doesn't AA have a policy of people not identifying themselves as alcoholics? There is no such policy. Instead AA has a policy of members not identifying themselves as AA members.

Quote:
If someone says their in AA one day and relapse the next, oh well - you're free as human being to look at that however you want - it's not the basis for the tradition


Actually, with the "spiritual principle of Anonymity" at the level of press, radio and TV, no one is not free to know that yesterday's "carrier of the message" is drunk today. That is the reason for the Tradition covering Anonymity.

I wrote:
This is very interesting language you use here. "Big book thumpers or radical AA haters." I've never heard that out of someone who is not a Stepper. Only Steppers call harsh critics "AA haters." Of course, I understand "the spirtual principle of Anonymity." Not only does it keep the public from knowing that the person who gave a hearty recommendation of AA on the news yesterday is drunk today, but members can pretend they are totally impartial and sway opinion in favor of the Step groups. This is particularly influential when Drs, psychologists and psychiatrists do so.


Quote:
Lots of groups use the word "hater" examples

Not in the same sentence with "Big Book thumpers." LOL.


I wrote:
Very interesting that you use examples of knowledge gained using the human intellect and the scientific method against the religous dogma of those times (Dark Ages for flat earth and "if man was meant to fly God would have given him wings") to make your case that "science don't mean nuthin' when talking 'bout the spiritual disease of alcoholism."


Quote:
Yes, I believe you can do anything you set your mind to - no matter what anyone tells you - try it


That is a non sequitur if ever I read one! Also surprising because that is directly in conflict with the 12 Step belief that only God can remove alcoholism, drug addiction, being messy, loving someone who has one of those diseases ad infinitum.

It is like a stepper saying "To thine own self be true" while insisting one pray, "God, relieve me of the bondage of self."

Ken Ragge
http://www.morerevealed.com
PostFri Dec 16, 2005 1:46 pm Offline
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Tue May 03, 2005 9:42 am70Seattle
What was your point in all this Ken?

and do you think it matters?


stop being such a weird-o and chill - there's several different yahoo groups to preach your doctrine and post your findings, results and teachings - with people who will agree with you, and your boy Peele...

Honestly this is retarded


later

a
"...So Long Balls!"
PostFri Dec 16, 2005 3:56 pm Offline
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Wed Apr 16, 2003 9:32 pm9640Sedro Woolley
Ken, I am not going to argue with you, since never having a problem with drinking, I know next to nothing about AA..Instead I am going get right to the point.. From everything you have written on here, I can plainly see, you are indeed a hater and an assh*le. Nobody here but you gives a f*ck about your disagreements with djadonis, and adonis wants to call the debate off, so why don't you leave him the f*ck alone?


And you know what, by being an assh*le here, you are not doing anything to promote your view on AA. Instead, people are NOT going to listen to you, because you are bitter, and you are only posting here to get in an arguement...
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PostFri Dec 16, 2005 5:01 pm Offline
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Fri Nov 28, 2003 2:46 pm2811LB Cali muthafncka, now what?
I went to Ken's site, it seems that this A.A. discussion is something that he's been focusing on for quite some time. He even has an entire debate devoted to this topic. I also noticed that the only post's that he has participated since his joined date of 12-13-05, are in this thread.

So for anybody who is still reading this and wants to continue this pointless discussion please go Here.

P.s. Thanks for the Beer's Will! Cheers :wink:
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PostSat Dec 17, 2005 11:32 am Offline
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Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:37 am19
djadonis wrote:
Quote:
What was your point in all this Ken?

and do you think it matters?


djadonis,

How do you think it doesn't matter? Very interesting that South Park does a show ridiculing Alcoholics Anonymous and some people here, most particularly you, are upset that someone is being critical of the Step groups.

Quote:
stop being such a weird-o and chill - there's several different yahoo groups to preach your doctrine and post your findings, results and teachings - with people who will agree with you, and your boy Peele...


Interesting. It seems you can tolerate the harsh criticism in South Park, perhaps you ascibe it to being "just a joke." However, much of South Park's humor is based in commentary on social issues.

Quote:
Honestly this is retarded


I can say most of your responses are retarded. For example, when you claimed treatment centers couldn't use the word God and when challenged to provide one, you gave a 12-Step treatment center as the example. Did you think I would not call? How retarded was that?

No need to answer.

Ken Ragge
http://www.morerealed.com
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